Jocko Willink: How to Become Resilient, Forge Identity & Lead Others | Huberman Lab Podcast #104
Dr. Andrew hosts Jocko Willink on the Huberman Lab Podcast for a wide-ranging discussion including resilience, habits, developing self identity, leadership, and so much more.
Check out the full podcast show notes: Jocko Willink: How to Become Resilient, Forge Your Identity & Lead Others
About The Podcast Host
Dr. Andrew Huberman (@hubermanlab), Ph.D. is a Professor of Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford University School of Medicine. His lab focuses on neural regeneration, neuroplasticity, and brain states such as stress, focus, fear, and optimal performance.
About The Podcast Guest
Jocko Willink (@jockowillink) is a retired Navy SEAL officer and author of multiple books on effective leadership and teamwork, self-discipline and mindset, and host of the Jocko Podcast.
Podcast Summary
Jocko and Andrew discuss how people can build and sculpt their identity and psychology through specific mindsets and actions and how to adapt the self to novel and challenging situations, using specific daily routines. They also discuss how “energy” actually stems from physical action and describe practical tools and scientific mechanisms for leveraging exercise, cold exposure, nutrition, fasting, hydration, sunlight, mindset and music to make us feel more energized. Jocko explains how discipline and specific daily routines allow for productivity and creativity. And they discuss the qualities of successful leaders, including how to build confidence and real bonds when working with a team or family/friends. Jocko describes a particularly powerful tool of using perspective shifts to allow for ‘detachment’ as a unique way to identify novel solutions to problems. Their conversation covers a wide range of topics, including mental health, physical health and performance, and provides actionable tools that anyone, regardless of age or profession, can apply to live a more effective and meaningful life.
Key Takeaways
The ultimate compensation for humans is to have control over their own destiny. You can have all the money in the world, but if you don't control what you're doing everyday, it's not worth it
Jocko realized that if he performed well, he actually got more freedom. Doing things right the first time saves additional time (don't have to redo tasks)
What I'm doing right now will impact where I will be in the future - either positively or negatively
People should focus more on movement and hydration - they would feel 2-4x more energy if they improved these areas of their life
Many highly accomplished athletes and high performers are unable to pass SEAL training because they are so accustomed to winning - resilience is imperative
The best way to deal with adversity is through taking action
You want to be the person who can modulate feelings (upbeat or downbeat)
All glory is fleeting
One reason that Jocko is so useful because many people lack a motivated friend or person that can help improve their daily habits or lives
Play, social connection, and sleep are the key components that help to restore balance
Jocko has seen so many friends that have been destroyed by alcohol. For this reason, he doesn't drink much
Jocko does not rely on motivation, it is an emotion that comes and goes, Instead, Jocko simply relies on daily habits that he knows he must accomplish
“There is nothing outside of yourself that can ever enable you to get better, stronger, richer, quicker, or smarter. Everything is within. Everything exists. Seek nothing outside of yourself.” ― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings.
You don't solve problems by running away from them, you solve problems by running towards them
One must be able to detach and look impartially at their life and make informed decisions about next steps
Must be able to see the bigger picture
In order to detach oneself from a scenario: Physically change body position/perspective, slow down the breath, make some physical space
Podcast Intro
After Andrew Huberman was featured as a guest on The Jocko Podcast, both Jocko and Andrew recognized the significant overlap in tool and approaches both recommended
In this podcast, Andrew and Jocko discuss tools for generating more physical energy, focus and cognitive energy, dealing with lack of motivation, dealing with challenging relationships, thinking about and navigating the self , and the underlying scientific mechanisms behind each tool and technique
Ultimately, these tools will help us to navigate and improve mental and physical health in all aspects of life
"If you had to draw a Navy SEAL, you would draw Jocko"
Sense of Self
Developing a sense of self is the first time we realize the things that interest us
For Jocko, discovering himself was a gradual process
Developing our sense of self is partially the realization that we can have some form of impact on the world - cause and effect
Two Kinds of People
The world needs both type of people
Generators: at a young age, people realize they can impact others
Projectors: reflect on what they see
Personality Types in the Armed Forces
When you join the military, you get a blank slate
If you perform well, you will get recognition and additional opportunities
The ultimate compensation for humans is to have control over their own destiny. You can have all the money in the world, but if you don't control what you're doing everyday, it's not worth it
Jocko realized that if he performed well, he actually got more freedom. Doing things right the first time saves additional time (don't have to redo tasks)
What I'm doing right now will impact where I will be in the future
The actions that I take now will either positively or negatively impact my future
Mindsets in the military
What type of people join the military? Jocko recommends reading The Psychology of Military Incompetence by Norman F Dixon
When looking at it from the outside, the military looks very simple. As one gains additional rank, they command respect and leadership
However, in reality, the military is not so simple
Due to the ability to command others, the military attracts many people with an authoritarian mindset - they want to give orders
In non-combat, orderly situations, people with authoritarian mindset perform well
However, in live combat, those who do well are those who can think on their feet and adapt
Different branches of military attract different personalities
Why SEALS are so effective - Historically, naval warfare was conducted in international waters. This meant that there was no room to retreat. Consequently, people needed to be able to take command - leading to decentralized chain of command
In the army, there is documentation and best practices on how to approach situations
The SEALS do not have documentation and indoctrination
Daily Workouts & Discipline
What is the balance between structure and lack of structure?
Jocko wakes up at 4:30am and immediately exercises
Sometimes Jocko's workouts are eight minutes, sometimes he spends two hours in the gym
We all start with genetic predispositions that allow us to be either good or bad at some activity (deadlifting vs sprinting vs swimming)
Jocko always writes down his exercises so that he can track his progress
Exercise & Energy, Cold Exposure
Jocko does not think much about waking up - he simply takes action
It is almost always guaranteed that you will feel better after exercising
Blanket rule: once every 24 hours, we get a spike in cortisol. Optimally, this should occur early in the day, and coincide with some form of exercise
We recently wrote an article that covers the optimal use of caffeine and sunlight for a morning routine
Eating after exercise - for Andrew and Jocko, they don't like to do physical activity with a full stomach, but this could vary from person to person
There is some level of mental clarity from not eating
People are so drawn to Jocko's message because he talks so succinctly about energy, particularly cognitive focus and energy
Neural energy is really the focus - much of the world thinks differently about how many calories we truly need
People should focus more on movement and hydration - they would feel 2-4x more energy if they improved these areas of their life
If you do 100 burpees, you are creating energy
If you can master identity and energy, you can live a better life
Andrew had an amazing workout doing rucking with Peter Attia. It sucks for the first few minutes, but then feels automatic
Jocko does cold water exposure, usually 5 minutes after he trains
Many athletes are so good at what they do because they know when to train, and when to relax - recovery is key
For Dr. Huberman, the main benefits of deliberate cold exposure are the spike in dopamine and the sense of resilience we develop over time
Win vs. Loss Mindset, Leadership, Action & Energy
There is a theory in biology that winning makes us want to win more - primarily driven by the release of dopamine
When we win, we feel like we can keep going
For many people, a loss can have a negative impact on motivation and drive
Training to become a Navy SEAL is self selecting - they will find weaknesses and apply pressure there. One must be able to be comfortable with losing and adapt
Many highly accomplished athletes and high performers are unable to pass SEAL training because they are so accustomed to winning - resilience is imperative
Leaders of all organizations are in charge of a mob. Leaders must detach mentally from mob mentality
If a leader gets caught up in emotion, they will be unable to lead effectively
Leaders should always seek to improve - even if their team is victorious
The best way to deal with adversity is through taking action
Do not dwell on losses - review what could have been improved and take action
How to reclaim energy
We must moderate our energy levels - we don't want the candle to burn too hot or too low
In Eastern philosophy, Qi (energy) must be preserved
One time Andrew ended up at Tony Hawk's childhood home. Tony's room was not filled with awards. Being humble could be a good explanation for Tony's likable persona, and his ability to continue skateboarding well into his 50's
Confidence, Generators vs. Projectors, Family
If I win a competition, my dopamine goes up. If I lose, my dopamine and confidence decreases
Imperative to maintain baseline level of confidence
People who are on cocaine typically exhibit overconfidence, driven by an increase in dopamine. On the other hand, people on downers might exhibit a lack of motivation and drive
Leaders cannot get wrapped up in the emotion, they must balance
The candle must be a steady flame, don't burn too high or too low
Generators (65% of population) are more attuned to energy levels
Projectors (35% of population) enjoy collaborating with generators
Some people are happy passively observing, while others need to be actively involved
Family
As a leader or parent, how do we teach our children to maintain their energy?
You may have lost this week, but let's not get too downtrodden. Let's look forward to next week
You want to be the person who can modulate feelings (upbeat or downbeat) - Be the counterweight of emotions that others have
All glory is fleeting
However, people must also take a moment to count their blessings
We must find balance in ourselves and others
One reason that Jocko is so useful because many people lack a motivated friend or person that can help improve their daily habits or lives
Restoring Motivation: Social Connection & Play
Sleep is a key component in restoring equilibrium
Play, social connection, and sleep are the key components that help to restore balance
Jocko uses the camaraderie of Jiu Jitsu to refill the tank
Self-Identity & Context, Alcohol, Music, Dopamine
Dr. Huberman "once you start having more than two drinks a week, there are negative health impacts"
Jocko didn't drink much as a teenager. When he was a Navy SEAL, his alcohol consumption increased. After retiring from the SEALS, Jocko doesn't drink much
Jocko has a great sense of context and self
When he was younger in the SEALS, he would go out and drink with his friends
Jocko is able to maintain his sense of self in multiple different contexts
Many people either have no sense of self, or their sense of self is very rigid
Jocko has seen so many friends that have been destroyed by alcohol. For this reason, he doesn't drink much
It is just not worth the dice roll to start drinking
People are starting to recognize the negative impacts from alcohol
Jocko developed a strong sense of self from the hardcore music that he listened to
When Jocko heard hardcore music for the first time, he immediately knew it was the right music for him
Jocko learned tone okay as an outsider and doing things differently
As an outsider, Jocko felt comfortable pushing back on orders or things that didn't seem right to him
If we think back far enough, we can identify a time or event when we really become aware of ourselves as individuals
There are certain individuals that are simply different and need to discover their own values
Motivation Sources & Recovering from Loss
What motivates Jocko?
Jocko does not rely on motivation, it is an emotion that comes and goes, Instead, Jocko simply relies on daily habits that he knows he must accomplish
One of Jocko's friends passed away unexpectedly in a parachute accident
When discussing friends who have passed away, Jocko said "we will not fail them"
Suicide, Navy SEALs, Social Contagion
Scientists cannot find an answer to what causes people to attempt suicide
Jocko has been surprised by people who commit suicide
Something happens to many SEALS that causes them to become different people. Things like explosions and trauma impact people in different ways
Something is happening either mechanically or chemically that is causing people to end their lives
At some point, people with repeated brain injuries change
Jocko is nervous about the social contagion of suicide in the veteran community
Prior to ending their lives, many people who commit suicide tend to have messed up sleep schedules and little contact with other people
There are universal laws of health that should be adhered to in order to stave off negative thought loops (sleep, nutrition, etc)
If someone is self-medicating with alcohol or drugs, that is a sign that they need help
Positive action in itself is a source of energy
“There is nothing outside of yourself that can ever enable you to get better, stronger, richer, quicker, or smarter. Everything is within. Everything exists. Seek nothing outside of yourself.” ― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings.
You don't solve problems by running away from them, you solve problems by running towards them
Indirect vs direct approach to solving conflict - Jocko prefers indirect approach
Meditation, Detachment
Two basic forms of meditation (for more information on how meditation works, check out our recent post How Meditation Works & Science-Based Meditation Tools)
Focused meditation: Focus on an individual sound or object
Open Monitoring Meditation: Do not hover on particular thoughts for too long
Jocko has never formally meditated, but he does think it is important to detach from situations and emotions
Adaptability & Opportunities, Navy SEALs
SEALS are particularly adept at adapting and solving issues
Some people are more adaptable than others
Navy SEALs cannot be placed into one archetype
Why are some SEALS more successful than others?
Some people are able to manipulate systems and information to their own advantage
Some people are only successful at checking boxes and following a set path
In real life, there are no clear boxes to check
Some people don't have an open mind to see opportunities
Ambition & Love, Likeability, Leadership
People who are adaptable must tap into the feeling of love for things, people, and experiences
Rick Rubin meditation allows us to tap into "the source"
By liking what we are doing or who we are working for we are able to have better outcomes
How do I identify people that can execute?
Some people are good at execution, but bad at idea generation
A successful team should consist of people with complementary skill sets
Leaders must find the roles that are the best fit for people
Liking your job is critical to performing well
Everyone has a certain place on a team or in a community
Building Teams, Detachment, Family
One must be able to detach and look impartially at their life and make informed decisions about next steps
Must be able to see the bigger picture
On helping people through challenging times: Jocko sees a temporary storm cloud, whereas the person only sees darkness
You just have to help people get out of their own head and take action to move forward
It is much easier said than done to help people detach and see the big picture
People get caught up in their own thoughts and competition
Andrew and Jocko might see that Lex Fridman releases a new podcast that got a bunch of attention and feel jealous. Meanwhile, there are other people who don't even know what a podcast is - it is all about the context
When facing a problem in life, you must recognize that it is temporary and can be overcome
We can all learn how to detach ourselves from our own problems and lives - not all problems can be solved
Know thyself
Understand what is important and what is not
Is this important or not?
Is this solvable or not?
What is the ROI for solving this?
Detachment is a superpower
Tools: Strategies to Detach from Situation
Jocko was an oil rig conducting a training exercise. For 30+ seconds, nobody provided orders. Jocko took a step back to survey the situation and expanded his point of view
As a young guy, Jocko was not in a position to give a command. But he knew the right thing to do and gave the command
Jocko broadened his range of vision - it allowed him to de-escalate a situation
Physically change the perspective, slow down the breath, make some physical space
Actively listen to what people are saying
When we take a step back, we are able to see more options
Things are happening at all scales at all times
Problem solving nature of people makes us shortsighted